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	<title>Comments on: Lisbon II &#8211; What&#8217;s Changed?</title>
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	<link>http://www.jbwan.com/2009/07/27/lisbon-ii-whats-changed/</link>
	<description>Jonathan Brazil&#039;s view of the world</description>
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		<title>By: jbwan</title>
		<link>http://www.jbwan.com/2009/07/27/lisbon-ii-whats-changed/comment-page-1/#comment-378</link>
		<dc:creator>jbwan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jbwan.com/?p=937#comment-378</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment Joe - it&#039;s good to hear a considered response; I&#039;m sure that I&#039;ll have several that aren&#039;t. ;)

The campaign for a YES fell on its face last time around because of a few reasons. Audacity of government ministers telling people how to vote and not ask questions, several high profile ministers admitting on national airwaves that they had not read the document, rumblings from other EU countries of citizens who felt aggrieved that they didn&#039;t have a chance to vote on this and generally that this all looked like a little coup for the political cream that had little value for the opinions of the people. I&#039;m not saying that&#039;s the reality of the implementation but it&#039;s certainly the way that it came across.

As for the guarantees supplementing the treaty, well that&#039;s not correct. Legally, unless the guarantees actually form an appendix to the treaty document and are signed into being with such, any other subsequent deal/vote will supercede the guarantees and such is the case at the moment as there is no way that the EU will append these documents to the treaty. This makes them as good as null and void.

On the point of a commissioner. I will grant you that there was some incorrect rumblings about this last time around but the real facts are that only 66% of EU countries will have a commissioner at any 5-year interval. This means that many controlling countries will more than likely always have a commissioner and countries such as Ireland could potentially be without a commissioner for a minimum of 5 years. That&#039;s no spin, just the way that the proposed system will work.

I would have to totally disagree that the rejection of the treaty has had any impact on Ireland. FDI was hi-tailing it out of the country for years because of our high cost of employment and union controlled work environments, coupled with legislation from the 40&#039;s that effectively runs the country with a iron fist, hindering the operating capacity of business. A country the size of Ireland has very little say in the EU, let&#039;s face it our rejection of the treaty was publicly criticised on international airwaves by impetuous bureaucrats. Imagine if we actually put our hand up on something that actually had an impact on the EU functioning rather than a fat trimming exercise? While many will closely guard the view that Ireland has done itself harm, I certainly will never forget the reaction and exactly how the opinions of Ireland are treated by the EU - it&#039;s not a pretty picture.

As you say, the guarantees will not be appended to the treaty, indeed it doesn&#039;t make sense to restart a ratification process in all countries - it&#039;s just a pity that all countries&#039; electorates didn&#039;t have a say first time around. I&#039;m sure that there&#039;s no conspiracy and in all probability, the EU is such a bureaucratic dinosaur that is so weighed down in red tape that nothing will ever change anyway, in terms of its functioning effect. However, I have never signed a blank contract in my life and I certainly would never agree to any YES vote on a matter that demands clarification and requires me to perform my civic duty. To vote YES this time would be wrong considering nothing has changed and all fears remain, only further heightened by the governments recent admission (by action) that these fears are genuine causes for concern. We&#039;ll have to wait and see I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment Joe &#8211; it&#8217;s good to hear a considered response; I&#8217;m sure that I&#8217;ll have several that aren&#8217;t. <img src='http://www.jbwan.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The campaign for a YES fell on its face last time around because of a few reasons. Audacity of government ministers telling people how to vote and not ask questions, several high profile ministers admitting on national airwaves that they had not read the document, rumblings from other EU countries of citizens who felt aggrieved that they didn&#8217;t have a chance to vote on this and generally that this all looked like a little coup for the political cream that had little value for the opinions of the people. I&#8217;m not saying that&#8217;s the reality of the implementation but it&#8217;s certainly the way that it came across.</p>
<p>As for the guarantees supplementing the treaty, well that&#8217;s not correct. Legally, unless the guarantees actually form an appendix to the treaty document and are signed into being with such, any other subsequent deal/vote will supercede the guarantees and such is the case at the moment as there is no way that the EU will append these documents to the treaty. This makes them as good as null and void.</p>
<p>On the point of a commissioner. I will grant you that there was some incorrect rumblings about this last time around but the real facts are that only 66% of EU countries will have a commissioner at any 5-year interval. This means that many controlling countries will more than likely always have a commissioner and countries such as Ireland could potentially be without a commissioner for a minimum of 5 years. That&#8217;s no spin, just the way that the proposed system will work.</p>
<p>I would have to totally disagree that the rejection of the treaty has had any impact on Ireland. FDI was hi-tailing it out of the country for years because of our high cost of employment and union controlled work environments, coupled with legislation from the 40&#8242;s that effectively runs the country with a iron fist, hindering the operating capacity of business. A country the size of Ireland has very little say in the EU, let&#8217;s face it our rejection of the treaty was publicly criticised on international airwaves by impetuous bureaucrats. Imagine if we actually put our hand up on something that actually had an impact on the EU functioning rather than a fat trimming exercise? While many will closely guard the view that Ireland has done itself harm, I certainly will never forget the reaction and exactly how the opinions of Ireland are treated by the EU &#8211; it&#8217;s not a pretty picture.</p>
<p>As you say, the guarantees will not be appended to the treaty, indeed it doesn&#8217;t make sense to restart a ratification process in all countries &#8211; it&#8217;s just a pity that all countries&#8217; electorates didn&#8217;t have a say first time around. I&#8217;m sure that there&#8217;s no conspiracy and in all probability, the EU is such a bureaucratic dinosaur that is so weighed down in red tape that nothing will ever change anyway, in terms of its functioning effect. However, I have never signed a blank contract in my life and I certainly would never agree to any YES vote on a matter that demands clarification and requires me to perform my civic duty. To vote YES this time would be wrong considering nothing has changed and all fears remain, only further heightened by the governments recent admission (by action) that these fears are genuine causes for concern. We&#8217;ll have to wait and see I guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.jbwan.com/2009/07/27/lisbon-ii-whats-changed/comment-page-1/#comment-377</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 23:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If the arguments against the treaty are valid, then they should stand up to scrutiny again this time. 

There is very little to hide - the argument was lost last time and the government want to ask the people again. Our European neighbours (represented through their parliaments) also want it and every country is waiting on us now. 

The guarantees don&#039;t change the text of the treaty but supplement it and counter the numerous spurious counter-arguments that swayed so many voters to vote no out of fear. 

The right to a commissioner was removed under Nice once 27 countries joined the EU. Lisbon only defined how the system of *equal* rotation would work. This is one of the factual inaccuracies associated with Lisbon. It&#039;s a moot point as every country has retained the right to one, even if they are the commissioner for bananas. 

I must insist that the rejection of the treaty has done some damage to Ireland. To outsiders, it looks like our commitment to the EU has weakened and that is bad for everything from foreign direct investment (and the jobs that go with it), establishing trade with non-EU countries and it even weakens our negotiating ability with other EU countries on every directive and external treaty that the EU works on collectively. 

The guarantees will not be appended to this treaty as it has already been ratified and submitted and restarting the ratification process in over two dozen countries is nonsensical. It will be just as easily appended to an accession treaty for Croatia or Iceland in the near future. It&#039;s not exactly a conspiracy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the arguments against the treaty are valid, then they should stand up to scrutiny again this time. </p>
<p>There is very little to hide &#8211; the argument was lost last time and the government want to ask the people again. Our European neighbours (represented through their parliaments) also want it and every country is waiting on us now. </p>
<p>The guarantees don&#8217;t change the text of the treaty but supplement it and counter the numerous spurious counter-arguments that swayed so many voters to vote no out of fear. </p>
<p>The right to a commissioner was removed under Nice once 27 countries joined the EU. Lisbon only defined how the system of *equal* rotation would work. This is one of the factual inaccuracies associated with Lisbon. It&#8217;s a moot point as every country has retained the right to one, even if they are the commissioner for bananas. </p>
<p>I must insist that the rejection of the treaty has done some damage to Ireland. To outsiders, it looks like our commitment to the EU has weakened and that is bad for everything from foreign direct investment (and the jobs that go with it), establishing trade with non-EU countries and it even weakens our negotiating ability with other EU countries on every directive and external treaty that the EU works on collectively. </p>
<p>The guarantees will not be appended to this treaty as it has already been ratified and submitted and restarting the ratification process in over two dozen countries is nonsensical. It will be just as easily appended to an accession treaty for Croatia or Iceland in the near future. It&#8217;s not exactly a conspiracy!</p>
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